28 replies to this topic

[Schlep]

On many occasions I have have spent many hours hunting for an item for a customer only to have them take the sheets with the product on them and show them to another distributor who spends about 1 minute doing up a quote.

I have stopped leaving books with the customer and I usually take them in colour scans of the item and leave it with them. The pages have company names removed where ever possible.

The reps seem to know which catalogue they are from.

They always want to keep the book or the scan to show someone else.

I know it is a part of life but has anyone found a way to cut down on the times that it happens?

Thanks

[plantia]

Arnold, that is one of the things I love about doing ESP Presentations. The first thing I do is delete the product number! Before that, I would copy the photo and paste it into my excel proposal. At least I am gonna make the other person work! Sue

[royster13]

Sue give me an image of something and I can usually find it before you could drink a cup of coffee....Copying another proposal takes little of no effort....The hardest part is figuring out what a client wants....With proposal in hand and them shopping it is much easier....So why do we miss those sales....Many times it is because we do not ask for the order...Closing sales is an acquired skill that most of us could brush up on....RCS...

[LOGO emPower]

Arnold, have you never been provided a product under consideration by your customer that came from another Distributor? This happened alot back in my days, it is all part of competition. I usually tackled it by presenting ideas/items and creating the interest in buying. Your customers actually learn to appreciate, recognize and finally reward you based on the fact that you are looking out for them and coming in with ideas and not just under-bidding orders.

[ProPrinters]

Tell me honestly you never benefitted from this? Honestly?

[A G]

Shlep,

It is impossible to avoid this happening completely. Here are some things, though, that I suggest.

Where possible, get suppliers' PDF files, JPG files, etc to show a product. ALWAYS either eliminate OR modify the Item # (so another distributor or distributor sales person cannot easily identify the item). Do this ALSO on samples. Of late, I have asked more and more for suppliers to send items without either their ASI or other trade ID #'s, as well as withOUT Item #'s. I also eliminate discount codes (enough people can read them, that it causes problems).

I have a deal right now where a lady, who now works for a healthcare company, and who told me she was previously a promotional products distributor, asked if I could match some prices on an item she found on an industry website. And, of course, I could.

I then got in samples, per her request. Yesterday, she called, and wanted to place a minimum order. I asked for half down. Though I've done business with the parent company before (and that was years ago), I seem to remember that they were a little slow pay. She says that doing so (even with just a credit card), may be a problem. They want me to give them credit (as if you can go in any medical clinic, and get reciprocating lines of credit). Of course, I will not. Furthermore, when she returns the samples, and if she does not buy from me, I plan on charging her company for the freight in bringing in the samples.

I know they likely won't pay it. But, with luck, service charges, etc, I can build this up to something I can get big enough, and then sue for in small claims court.

Not really! But it's fun to at least contemplate. It would be nice to collect money from a healthcare entity, since they often charge 'decent' amounts for what (often) little they do.

All of what I said about that stuff is time consuming. But, sometimes, it at least prevents them from "easily" capitalizing on your work.

A few customers, who seldom if ever buy from me, though they ask me to quote on things now and again, I turn down. Of course, for new prospective customers, you never know what they will do to you, do you?

Good luck (to you AND all of us, in this VERY TREACHEROUS world)!!

— A G

[FindingPromo]

Lead with your knowledge of the industry, how you know the competition, and how well you know your suppliers is my suggestion. When you begin to work the "relationships" and your own professional development, instead of the "pencil sharpener," then you will find you are doing business more and more with the people that you want to do business with.

Maybe it's back to my distributor days, and/or end buyer days, but I never to the best of my understanding expected either to always get the best price for everything, and or to offer always, the best and lowest price to my customers. I expected myself and my company to be worth more, as well as treated suppliers fair and equitably, and knew that the relationships on all sides were, and now are, more important than single order pricing. And now I simply am a realist and do not expect to get every order quoted to multiple suppliers, many times via multiple DSR's.

I fully understand that with more and more of a knowledgeable end buyer, that now knows how our channel is laid out, and sometimes acts accordingly if they are simply shopping price or working with Distributors they mutually care about. I guess it's back to that relationship thing again, that folks should use Suppliers that they mutually care about (see relationships again), and that many of those end users are comfortable with both, their Distributor and a chosen Brand/Supplier in many cases, whose joint efforts will provide the Solutions they need, and not simply the product.

For those end buyers that do not appreciate the above, and shop commodities from this item to the next, and don't see the whole value everyone brings . . . . .they're only going to shop you again next time, and eventually they will loose the service level that they've enjoyed from their trusted partner.

People appreciate extra value that you can bring to them, as it make's them more comfortable in their decisions. It's up to all of us to show, that we bring more value in what we do, then a price.

[obpp]

I lost sales this way at the beginning (years ago) - it is all coming back to me now. It is a rare day when a client shows me a picture and I don't know it or can't find it. Then I search for similar alternates, and nearly always get the sale. -- It isn't the pictures, the price, or the overall quote that gains me the sale - it is experience, knowledge, and bringing ideas to the client. To make you feel better - I lost one yesterday - good client - but new person joint venturing with another company on a special project - 100 jackets - they only wanted to see red and in a certain price range and material. (I don't sacrifice pricing). I spent a good day researching RED jackets and pricing to fit their criteria. Brought them a sample, the pricing was even below what they required and I still had my profitability. Yesterday, I dropped in to pick up my sample. They'd had their meeting the day before. The partner company had their distributor bring in samples - no reds - and they ended up choosing black. I had told them there were all kinds of availability in black at the time I brought the red - but I was told they only wanted red. This was a lesson for me - bring some options.

On quotes don't make it easy for others by leaving any model numbers on the item.
If you can do a virtual sample with their logo this will impress your clients. Over time you will learn to ditch clients who only price shop.
It never hurts to ask for the order when you present the quote - or if you e-mail the quote, make a follow-up call by the next day or sooner to make sure they got it and ask if they want to order.
Customer service, customer service, customer service and hard work will lead to the winner's circle - but it takes time.

Good Luck

[evangar]

How can our experience or relationships with customers get past the fact that 4imprint.com sells to end users at nearly our cost? Example, I'm on the phone today with a client and they mentioned 4imprint. I go to their site and they have the pen I'm going to suggest. The Mardi Grad from Hub Pen at 23 cents a piece at 5000 qty. Unless there's some special I don't know about. That's 3 cents over my cost.

[A G]

Mark Shinn,

What you say is important. We would not be in business without customers who value our professionalism, know our integrity, and trust that we deliver as expected when expected, and come to us for our creativity and great ideas.

That said, there are still plenty of times when customers who have done that change (new purchasing person), or go in and out of that ideal some. I do all that I can to promote the fact that we're professional, and that most people don't get bids from 3-5 doctors before doing business with them. One might get a price from a mechanic, and rates from an accountant or an attorney. But we try to promote ourselves as professionals.

[A G]

Mark Shinn,

What you say is important. We would not be in business without customers who value our professionalism, know our integrity, and trust that we deliver as expected when expected, and come to us for our creativity and great ideas.

That said, there are still plenty of times when customers who have done that change (new purchasing person), or go in and out of that ideal some. I do all that I can to promote the fact that we're professional, and that most people don't get bids from 3-5 doctors before doing business with them. One might get a price from a mechanic, and rates from an accountant or an attorney. But we try to promote ourselves as professionals.

But, regardless of how much we do that, sooner or later we are hit with someone, like a client we had about a decade or more ago. We spent a week of Christmas downtime, when graphic programs were not what they are now, putting together art for some buttons for a client. We charged them for the buttons, and just a nominal fee for the art. They spent tens of thousands of dollars with us until then. So, we gave a lot all of the time for them.

Fast forward not even a month afterward. When they were starting their program where large dollars would be spent on wearables, tote bags, etc, after we spent a whole "freakin' week" doing artwork for a $200 button order during our Christmas "vacation", they want to know what our "bid" was.

They had just acquired a construction company, and, suddenly, they acquired the attitude that everything was a commodity, so what's your lowest price on it. Needless to say (almost), but the button order was the last order we ever did with them. Not that we wouldn't do more. But, the price cutters came in (a former employee of theirs to whom I use to sell), and undercut me.

Of course, supposedly, Proctor & Gamble just recently won a $200 million dollar suit against them. So, its okay to be far away from them now. They can ask for their 3-5 bids (from whomever will risk selling to them).

Heck, Mark, I've had this number done to me so many times, I almost feel like a "street walker". Live and learn, they say. Mostly learn, is what I have come to see.

Mark, come down to my office in Utah, and you straighten me out how we accomplish the lofty ideals you advocate. Evidently, from what you are conveying, you (supposedly always?) do this (or accomplish this—am I wrong?). Tell me how the consumate professional salesperson handles this in both approach, attitude, everything.

In this regard (and, please, don't take me wrong, or misunderstand me—I'm using the following as purely a metaphor)—but, apparently, you are a "virgin" in this regard, because I've been scr**ed so many times myself, I must be in the Don Imus sector.

Used Car Dealers who, have never enjoyed a reputation for being straight with people, have given me their version of things (and I've seen it played out many a time)—they (the used car dealers) say, "Buyers are Liars". While this isn't ALWAYS true, I would agree that, 70-80% of the time, or so, that's true.

Anecdotal evidence. A little over 20 years ago, I moved my business from my home (I worked from a home office for about 6 years), to my current rented commercial location. We were trying to turn our home back into just a home. I told the then old Mt Bell people that I wanted my home line changed to a residential listing. I acquired a new (my current) phone number, and decided to change my business name, to better describe what I did (or sold), and also to get better Yellow Pages placement. So, I bought a small display ad in the old Yellow Pages under my new company name.

Well, someone didn't inform the Yellow Pages people when I changed my home listing from a business listing to a residential listing. And, the result was my old small display ad, under my previous dba, was still in the "book". I called to 'Ma Bell' and complained about that. (An aside, they claimed I had to pay for both ads, or they would disconnect my current phone #). I told them, if they did, I would never give them a Yellow Page ad again. After all, I pointed out, I was in the advertising business, and I would simply build my business by distributing what I sold with my info on it—my hardball beat their hardball).

Anyway, we ended up forwarding our home phone during the day time to my office phone. Every day for the next year, I received calls, first, mostly at my new location. People would ask me the price for an item, and I'd look it up and give it to them. They'd say (without me even pushing them for a committment), "Great, that sounds like a good price, I'll come in and buy that!"

Well, in 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days, they'd call my other number, and I would answer their call again. A few recognized my voice from the first call they made. But most didn't. And, after I would give them a price again (it could be lower, the same, or higher), they would give me the same schpiel they did the first time they called.

So, when I saw that, without trying to entrap anyone, or be sneaky, or anything else, I found that by far the majority of people say they will do what they obviously do not intend to do.

Now, I am a man of faith. I believe in God. And, despite those hundreds of experiences that year, I still have some (though not unqualified) faith in mankind. I chalk it up to the fact that many niceties we exchange between ourselves, are, to a certain extent, disingenuous.

I've had customers show utmost honesty in other situations, doing the right thing by me, even though they could have gotten away with not doing it. So, not all are dishonest (but, I still believe, to the extent they think that they will not be found out, most people are, to some degree, dishonest). Or, at least, our culture pushes us to make commitments (I've not always been the best salesperson, if I even am now—so I haven't and maybe don't always push people towards a sale, like some advocate), even when no committment is requested or required.

Of course, some would make no commitment. And others said that they "might" be in. Both of those may not be what we want to hear, of course—but they are likely closer to the truth (even though some of them still show up, and some of those even buy something)!

True, it is a sad commentary on things. But, what other conclusion, with that evidence, can you come to? It sure was disheartening to me!

However, I am STILL an optimist. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in business for myself.

All the best to all of you!

— A G

[FindingPromo]

There is no doubt about it, that more and more of today's buyer do their homework and have the opportunity to also do much of the same searching and hunting, that most all distributors do, if they are trying to target the best price on an item that they have already found.

Some distributors bring in a piece of paper, for their clients to sign, that is a written statement that the end buyer will not use the information provided to them, by their particular Promotional Consultant and basically "Shop their idea." I'm not say it's the final answer, but I've seen it work.

Every one of us, need to have a different point of differentiation.

The internet has flattened out, not only the information flow and availability of products, images and pricing, but also made many buyers aware that there are many many high volume and efficient distributors that are a simple solution for products that they want to shop price on. Those folks have earned the right for negotiated better pricing, and in some cases have even more efficiencies that allow them to deliver at certain prices.

Margins are not the same as they were, in this new world we're in, and partnering with your customers to be the complete solution they need will have them not see the need for them to find the time to spend with your competition.

Sometimes you need to fire a customer that shops you, and I have seen a couple of suppliers and distributors need to do that when they were only being used as comparative pricing quotes.

Good Luck with building your relationships.

[FindingPromo]

A G said:

Mark Shinn,

What you say is important. We would not be in business without customers who value our professionalism, know our integrity, and trust that we deliver as expected when expected, and come to us for our creativity and great ideas.

. . . . . .

Mark, come down to my office in Utah, and you straighten me out how we accomplish the lofty ideals you advocate. Evidently, from what you are conveying, you (supposedly always?) do this (or accomplish thisâ??am I wrong?). Tell me how the consumate professional salesperson handles this in both approach, attitude, everything.

In this regard (and, please, don't take me wrong, or misunderstand meâ??I'm using the following as purely a metaphor)â??but, apparently, you are a "virgin" in this regard, because I've been scr**ed so many times myself, I must be in the Don Imus sector.

. . . .

However, I am STILL an optimist. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in business for myself.

All the best to all of you!

â?? A G

Milo,

I wish I could say that I have the magic answer, but sorry, that's not the case. What I've been told by many, is that I try to accentuate the positive, and learn the most of what's important from that. I'm going to learn from the not-so-positive or questionable ROI and non-profitable situations, and do my best, not to be put in a similar situation the next time around.

Some customers and some people, simply are going to show that they do not value what you bring to them and/or take your idea to someone else for a lower price.

I'm blessed that we continue to have well over 2000 customers, just in the West, that continue to entrust their business with our Supplier Partners. I would presume that over 90 % of the top 400 customers will be in our 400 again for 2008, and account for over 85% of my business. The old 80/20 rule is actually 86% through less than 20%.

I try not to allow the price shoppers, and folks that moved to others from new relationships etc. get to me. I simply do not allow it to get to me since the business is growing, I have more Suppliers contacting me then we feel we can service, and our Customer Base is growing, so something must be working . . . . without taking anything for granted.

[A G]

aapromotions said:

Check with Hub. Maybe there's a special they are offering. If not sell them for .23 and tell them it's a special that you cannot guarantee in the future. I've never had a problem making some good money off that catalog.

Hub has one or more reps who handle "volume" customers. You can go to Hub and say, "I think I will be able to do XXXXX qty on XXX item the coming year. What price can you give me based on that." That is (apparently) what the 4promos.com and others do to get the better prices that they can sell for less, and still earn adequate profit margin on.

â?? A G

p.s. The customer I mentioned who wanted to place an order, but had a problem with paying a deposit, has contacted me and said she's placing the order. I'm just waiting for the Credit Card info from her.

[A G]

Mark,

You have said that margins have changed. I don't disagree that, overall, most suppliers have dropped the margins they build into product prices. And, perhaps also, many distributors have decreased the margins they build in prices they give their customers.

However, with all of the "players" in our market/trade/industry, and many more of them selling the same thing/s other suppliers do (basically, the market is flooded), largely with goods from China, they can't all sell more, and more of the same products, to the same customers, and all survive.

How many pens can you write with at one time? How many ballcaps can you wear, or even stuff in your closet?

I have found, while, for a while I somewhat decreased margins to try to bring in more business, I found that decreasing prices and margins didn't work at all. They just made me less money on the same quantity of sales.

If I could encourage other distributors to be smart doing anything, it would be to increase gross profit margins as much as they are able. In fact, I have found that that is the only way we have been able to get ahead at all.

Of course, this often times involves finding suppliers who are more price competitive on an item a customer wants. (That's why so many are buying from China, either directly or indirectly!) And, I will add, I don't know how long this "party" will last. Because it certainly can't go on forever.

But, I've tried selling 'American made' in the past, just to be eaten by the competition. I even had a union, last year, who insisted on buying American made lapel pins. I found someone who made lapel pins in the US, and quoted them. They were in the $6-$7 something dollar range each.

Well, that customer kinduv "croaked" or choked on that price (as I knew they would).

They came back a few months later, and ordered the same lapel pins from us before, still made in China, but found a way to diminish the "Made in China" aspect of the lapel pins.

But, one thing I have learned for sure— reducing overall profit margin is a formula for disaster and going out of business. And, I've seen them come (distributors of all sizes), and I've seen them go (distributors of all sizes).

We've found that we have had to reduce, for example, the size of ads we put in the Yellow Pages, and occasionally eliminate categories we have long been listed in, simply because they were not profitable.

Although we have changed the size, and have gone, in the last few months, to an ad for one category that has no logo or art in it (I largely stick with in-column ads), I have been fastidiously demanding of my yellow page rep on seeing art proofs, still, and working and reworking the language and the typestyles and size of type, etc, to get the ads to say and look the way we feel they need to, to both convey information, be very easily readable & understandable, and the have a bit of 'snap' and 'sizzle' to them to whet the appetite of potential clients.

— A G

[A G]

aapromotions said:

Milo, what happens when you can't do the xxxxx qty on xxx item for the coming year??? Hmmmm!!!

Well, I'm sure Hub and other suppliers who work such deals with "volume" buyers likely won't give you volume pricing!

Furthermore, some won't give you ANY volume pricing UNTIL you convince them, some way, that you really ARE likely to do volume with them.

â?? A G