91 replies to this topic

[impctads]

One of my Clients has fallen in love with that Excite "Slogan Pen" that Amsterdam offers in their sale catalog. It is not in the Windmill catalog so it must be an exclusive to Amsterdam. It irks me that I get Amsterdams catalog thrust in my face all the time (I have never done business with Windmill or Saratoga) But it irks me even more that since I don't have a pen that offers free slogans like "Thank You" and "Congratulations" in addition to the clients custom info, I may loose an order to them on other items as well. Chris, if you talk to a pen supplier (metal preferred) then ask them if they will start a program that we can offer to our clients as a 'signature pen' that has free second location stock engraved slogan like Thank You, Congratulations, World Class, Success, We (heart) Our Customers, Teamwork. I would love to step on Amsterdam toes with my own slogan pen. ( I have attached the ad from Amsterdam so you can see it)

Attached File(s)

•  Excite Pen Slogan.jpg (280.72K)
  Number of downloads: 33

[Chris Miller]

Every pen company I have dealt with has no setup when doing standard typesetting. I have done several orders where the customer wanted their info and a message like "Thank you". I just tell the supplier to typeset it all on there.

[impctads]

I know that straight line copy is available and depending on the imprint area and how much info your client needs already that may or may not be an option, but as you can see from the picture, graphics and a nice font do add visual value and that is what will catch the eye of our clients as well as the receiver of the pen.

[Chris Miller]

I see what you're saying now. I would think most of the pen suppliers have stock art like this on file and shouldn't charge extra for using it. I completely understand where you are coming from though.

[impctads]

Chris, Remember that catalog you received from Union Pen Company? If you look at their website you will see that they also offer slogan pens. I say not a coinsidence, no way!
http://www.unionpen..../aristocrat.htm

I am so miffed I can't stand it!

[epromos]

pinspec said:

I have recieved several catalogs from this company as well and would like to know who is supplying their products especially with the low minimums they can produce.

I will tell you the secret!

There are non-asi suppliers who 99.9% of us distributors cannot buy from. You don't know who they are and you never will and if you did they won't sell you unless you can give then 10K in business a month. These pen guys find the big distributors, mail order guys themselves and contact them directly. They even sell to ASI suppliers who sell us. I know this for a fact. How can they sell so inexpensively? There only cost is operating their factory. They have zero marketing costs, no printed catalogs that little distributors demand for free. No web site, no asi and ppai shows, no customer service staff to deal with difficult/annoying small distributors. Just a factory.

This is how they sell a pen for $0.29 imprinted to amsterdam types companies that you would pay $0.59 for. Amsterdam sell them for $.79 you have to sell them for $0.99. The mail order companies like Amsterdam have no choice, theire cost structure having to pay for customer service staff, mail, postage and expensive mailing lists are much higher than us distributors who can get into the business with a quickbooks program.

So that is the big secret. What does this mean? Stop expecting for it to be easy to sell commodity products or promotional products in general. Welcome to capitalism and the survival of the fittest. Get into a low barrier to entry busienss like ours and welcome to the lion's den. Our business isn't rocket science and its hard to get paid like one.

[Dank]

This company OWNS one of our major suppliers, Saratoga Pen Company. I have complained to them at trade shows about their parent company's practices of mailing specials at prices lower than Saratoga's published prices to no avail. Therefore, I only sell thier products when an account asks me diractly for the product.




Shabby practice, if you want my opinion.:mad:

[impctads]

I have no problem with capitalism. I understand the hierarchy of the situation. My problem is I do not want to supply an enduser database to a supplier so they can then mail out their distributor company catalogs and under cut me (us). I know that Windmill Press and Goldstar arenâ??t the only industry supplier who also sells to end users either direct or through a â??cloakedâ?? distributorship. I want to expose those suppliers to as many other distributors as possible and a forum like this is a start. We should avoid using these suppliers whenever possible or boycott them all together because eventually it will be these organizations who take us small distributors down. Especially with the internet, even expensive mail catalogs are not necessarily needed. It is so easy to cut us out of the equation already, letâ??s stop helping them by giving them our client base to target! We should start a new thread on this alone. Every time I hear of a supplier who also sells to end users I make note of it in my search tool so I know not to do business with them. If we all did this it would have an impact, just a few of us and our voices are mute.

[tedp]

A: I love those catalogs. They save me a lot of money in sending catalogs to my clients. All of my clients know that they're to, when they receive these catalogs, simply picture my name and number on the back. I get plenty of calls from clients that were checking out the mail order guys, then call me to either get the item for them, or ask my opinion on it's use in their situation.

B: Handle it differently. Let them know what a piece of crap that pen is (and I think we all know that pen, and it's not the best in the world), show them how scratchy the plunger works, etc. Take it apart, then show them something from TimenetUSA. For ten cents more, they can have their choice of several different pens, many twist-up, and some with their Mirror Etch finish on the logo. Far more impact and perceived value for their money. Works all the time for me.

C: If they squawk about the setup charge and they're only buying 50 pens to start with, who wants a $100 order anyway? Go find a better customer. :lol:

No, I don't work for TimeNet, but I like their product and service. Pricing too.
www.timenetusa.com

impctads said:

One of my Clients has fallen in love with that Excite "Slogan Pen" that Amsterdam offers in their sale catalog. It is not in the Windmill catalog so it must be an exclusive to Amsterdam. It irks me that I get Amsterdams catalog thrust in my face all the time (I have never done business with Windmill or Saratoga) But it irks me even more that since I don't have a pen that offers free slogans like "Thank You" and "Congratulations" in addition to the clients custom info, I may loose an order to them on other items as well. Chris, if you talk to a pen supplier (metal preferred) then ask them if they will start a program that we can offer to our clients as a 'signature pen' that has free second location stock engraved slogan like Thank You, Congratulations, World Class, Success, We (heart) Our Customers, Teamwork. I would love to step on Amsterdam toes with my own slogan pen. ( I have attached the ad from Amsterdam so you can see it)

[adspecip]

I just had a client call me after receiving an Amsterdam catalog. Without having seen what they were offering my pricing was better than theirs for the same (or similar) product. My client uses their catalog as a reference only. They come to me because I offer the personal customer service and attention to their needs. Got 4 orders. Thanks Amsterdam (or should I say Windmill/Saratoga)

[a1promo]

Chris Miller said:

To be honest, this all makes me feel ill. I am beginning to think that there are a number of suppliers who don't take us distributors seriously and only want us as an "extra" stream of orders.

Very frustrating.

You are absolutely right!!!!

[jsarp]

FYI, I just called Windmill Press because a customer of mine is wanting a '2 for 1' special for pocket planners that is advertised in the Amsterdam catalogue. I called their c/s dep't and was very up front about what the problem was, and was told by a rep that the best she could do is give me nqp. I asked for a sales manager, and she gave me EQP, which beats the Amsterdam pricing.

That's my first experience in doing that with Windmill Press - and I wouldn't have known to do it had I not joined this forum....... it's great!
:D
Jane

[CMAPromo]

I have no vested interest in Amsterdam or Windmill Press although I represented Windmill/Saratoga for years until several years ago. Amsterdam is run as a separate company and is one of the many owned by Taylor Group, the parent company of several distributor, Andersons, Sales Guides, Amsterdam and several industry suppliers including Windmill, AdImages, CarlsonCraft and on and on and not sure, but used to own MN Timberwolves basketball and over a hundred total companies. Windmill Press is very ethical, has always been and I would think still is based on the ownership and management. When I represented them, we were usually able to work to get the business away from Amsterdam. Remember direct mail companies like this will actually loose some money just to get valid buyers names on their lists. It is a common practice. My recommendation is to let your clients know that when they buy from any major direct mail company, their name and info will be sold on a listing to other companies and the price will go up after the first purchase. I still have faith that distributors can sell better than a mailing piece. Build better relationships with your clients and the direct mail pieces can be a tool for creating new sales, as your client may see something they like and call you.

If you follow the idea of not doing business with a company that is owned by a corporation that also owns a distributor there a number of high profile companies that you would need to stop doing business with.

Just a Saturday morning opinion, thanks for allowing me to share.
Tom Carroll
CMA Promo Ideas

[ideaguy]

Tom, thanks for your insight here. One thing though - your recommendation
"to let your clients know that.....................the price will go up after the first purchase" would not hold water, because the customer would still work from published prices in the catalogue. Unless, I guess, with the caveat that if they wanted something that was not listed in the catalogue - perhaps than, those prices could be higher. Your recommendation about the listing being sold is a good determent and suggestion....IDEAGUY

[DBeavers]

ideaguy said:

Tom, thanks for your insight here. One thing though - your recommendation
"to let your clients know that.....................the price will go up after the first purchase" would not hold water, because the customer would still work from published prices in the catalogue. Unless, I guess, with the caveat that if they wanted something that was not listed in the catalogue - perhaps than, those prices could be higher. Your recommendation about the listing being sold is a good determent and suggestion....IDEAGUY

When a prospect receives the sample mail order piece from Amsterdam, it is usually far below their published prices. The letter often encourages the buyer to order the largest possible quantity, as they will not receive the promotional price on re-orders.

This is typical in Amsterdam mailings. I service a number of customers who have shown me the letter and product, and allow me to write the order at near the promotional price.

I don't promote the Windmill Line, but will use it to match their product if I don't have a good alternative.

Dennis

[ideaguy]

Dennis, okay I see... when someone gets a direct mail offer other than the catalogue, then, what Tom had said would be correct in this case. Thank you for your good points as well...IDEAGUY

[D Kellogg]

I believe they have been in the direct mail business for about 35 years; they are located in Amsterdam - fairly close to Noteworthy Industries, a supplier of poly bags, other advertising specialty items including paper bags, business folders.

They direct mail, probably print in house most of the products they buy from other suppliers, or manufacture themselves. Yes, discounted for sure.
I consider the league same as Myron, etc.
D

[HOTLOGO]

Chris Miller said:

Anyone know who this company is: www.amsterdamprinting.com

I get catalogs from them all the time addressed to my other business. If this is a distributor, they must be getting rediculously low pricing from a supplier.

Any ideas?

THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR 30 OR 40 YEARS. MY FATHER USED TO BUY FROM THEM IN THE FIFTIES. THEY ARE LIKE QWILL, THEY SEND OUT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CATALOGUES A YEAR. BY THE WAY, BIC ALWAYS SOLD DIRECTLY TO HOTELS AND TO THE VENDING INDUSTRY DIRECTLY. THERE ARE VERY FEW
LILY WHITE COMPANIES IN THIS INDUSTRY. WITH EVERYONE CUTTING EACH OTHER'S THROATS FOR A COUPLE OF CENTS, THE ETHICS HAVE CHANGED.

JEFF WEISS
HOTLOGO INC.:(

[HOTLOGO]

oneofakind said:

Last year I had a conversation with an angry distributor at a trade show complaining about BIC selling direct to hotel industry. Few weeks later a had a visit from my Bic rep. and asked her why and what is going on. The answer was pretty simple and made sents. Bic DOES NOT sell direct to hotel industry. What happens is that the quantities of an order are usually in thousands and thousand of pens, the profit for a distributor on an order like this in today's competitive market is sometimes only a few pennies per pen, which is probably normal for extremely large repeat orders. Bic does not really give such large credit to distributors dealing in hotel industry because of past problems such as when a distributor gets a $20,000 order with a profit of perhaps $2,000, its hard to give up the $18,000, and Bic has been burned. What bic does is first they work with you on a price, then they bill the cutomer/hotel direct, and pay you your profit that has been worked out. I personally think it is a pretty good deal.
About other companies selling bic pens with retail pricing not much different then your wholesale, this is the way for them to get business, when you are buying from their catalog or a website, statistically 90% of the buyers will buy something else. Their net cost for bics s not much different from ours, but this is the way to attract business so they make profit on other items. Just like any distributor is allowed to have a Bic pen special, for lets say $0.05 below net cost, to attract more/new business, the problem is actually ours, most of us are not a milti-million dollar companies and simply can not afford to take loss in order to attract new business.
Yelena

I OWNED A WELFARE HOTEL IN NEWARK NJ AND I BOUGHT PENS DIRECTLY FROM BIC. THEY ARE TOO BIG AND POWERFUL. THEY PROBABLY SELL MORE PENS THAN EVERYONE ELSE COMBINED. BY THE WAY, SENATOR HAS SOME REALLY COOL PENS.

HOTLOGO INC.

[hank141]

I realize that this thread started when Chris asked "Who Is Amsterdam Printing??" and then answered his own question, but I had a similar experience and I wanted to find out if anyone has run into American Identity who is functioning as a huge Promotional Products distributor and selling promo goods at or very near our costs for the same items. I ran into them when I tried to compete on an umbrella order for a client and attempted to quote on a Shedrain (PPAI 112963) www.shedrain.com specialty umbrella priced at $18.00 on (A) for me. Then my customer shows me an ad for the same piece from American Identity,(www.americanidentity.com) Trademarked and all, for a $ 8.60 quantity price direct. I didn't know what to say in reply, because even if I try to reduce to a 20% margin I'm at $10.80 and no one can survive long term on less than 20%OA. So how does American Identity resell at $8.60 ? They have to be buying the same piece for about $5.00. AI has a large distributor organization and a large phone and internet presence and have to have relativly large overhead, also they belong to none of the standard groups ASI, PPAI, SAGE, or any local orgs that I can see. So who are they, and where do they buy all the stuff they sell. It has to come from the same people we buy from but how come the margins are so hugely different?? Are you going to try to say their volume justifies a 100% better price and that they can buy in volume ahead from overseas and get these huge advantages but they never get stuck with their huge purchases and don't have large inventory handling and carrying charges? Please, we're all in the same business here and inventory and decorating is a big cost so I repeat how do they get the costs down so far as to sell below my costs?

I remember that old Saw "Lose a little on every order, but make it up in Volume"
we all know that's a fallicy, so how come these guys can get such great prices to be able to sell at our cost and below, and still be profitable? Apparently they've been in business a long time, even longer than some of our subscribers who can claim 25,30 and 40 years. Something is going on, I wish I understood it better.

We just have to go out and find customers who will not be trying to kill their vendors by seeking those direct sales elsewhere!

Hank Keller
HK Promotional Sales