137 replies to this topic

[Schlep]

So correct me if I am wrong, the attitude of some suppliers is that the distributor is just a sales person for them.

If the end user is the suppliers customer the distributor must just be an employee of the supplier.

What really scares me is the fact that these statements are being made and the interesting thing is (as stated in other threads) why doesn't the distributor trust us. As an employer you can fire or hire at will.

That is not how this industry was set up, when the supplier went into business they went in with the idea of supplying the distributor with great service and a quality product.

Now the supplier (some) have decided because "they can" and they have the end user information that the end user is their customer.

It is arrogance like this that scares the heck out of me and the future of this business model. And the suppliers wonder why we are sourcing China direct.

Yes as distributors we are doing the same thing to the supplier that they are doing to us.

No I do not trust ANY company that considers my customer their customer that is one step away from selling direct.

I hope that some suppliers are not confusing the issue that helping the end user through the distributor is somehow giving them any claim to the end user. If you did not want to offer customer service why did you go into business?

[bdp656]

I did not read every post but I will throw in my thoughts....

The reason I loved this business was because I could be creative and sell products with the security that the only competition I had to worry about was other distributors.

I like to qualify my clients to make sure that "lowest price" is somewhere down the list after service, quality, creativity, relationship etc. but the economy has made some end users look to directly dealing with suppliers to try to save money.

If I have to compete directly with a supplier who makes it easy for my client to do business with them I simply choose not to do business with that supplier.

I found the client, I invested the time and energy to create a solution and I chose the supplier to do the job. It is my responsibility to submit an order that is clear and concise and if I need help with art etc then I have no problem paying for it and the order especially if a mistake is MY fault.

If the supplier at some point contacts my client with the intent of selling directly or knowingly sells to end users then I would consider that unethical in the "triangle" concept. Why should I support a supplier who is also my competitor?

IMHO a supplier should decide whether they want to do business with distributors or end users - not both.

[jimknecht]

Schlep said:

So correct me if I am wrong, the attitude of some suppliers is that the distributor is just a sales person for them.

Yes. Is that not your job... sales?

Schlep said:

If the end user is the suppliers customer the distributor must just be an employee of the supplier.

Now this is a huge leap. I think you would be hard pressed to find many suppliers that feel like the enduser is the supplier's customer... in the legal sense. You will find folks like Dooley that look beyond our relationship with our customer, the distributor, and consider the enduser. And yes, in some sort of way we do consider the enduser as our customer. We don't want to meet them, talk with them or deal with them... however we are providing product for them. Yes, yes, I know the distributor is our client, but we like to think we are working for both of you.

Simple thing, though. If you ever feel your supplier oversteps their role... fire them. If they brand themselves in a fashion you consider unnecessary... fire them. If they contact your client for any reason... fire them. Don't worry about semantics, just worry about finding suppliers that do a great job. We are out there waiting on you.

Edited by jimknecht, 24 February 2010 - 07:04 AM.

[Schlep]

jimknecht said:

Yes. Is that not your job... sales?


Now this is a huge leap. I think you would be hard pressed to find many suppliers that feel like the enduser is the supplier's customer... in the legal sense. You will find folks like Dooley that look beyond our relationship with our customer, the distributor, and consider the enduser. And yes, in some sort of way we do consider the enduser as our customer. We don't want to meet them, talk with them or deal with them... however we are providing product for them. Yes, yes, I know the distributor is our client, but we like to think we are working for both of you.

Simple thing, though. If you ever feel your supplier oversteps their role... fire them. If they brand themselves in a fashion you consider unnecessary... fire them. If they contact your client for any reason... fire them. Don't worry about semantics, just worry about finding suppliers that do a great job.

Actually well said (**** I hate telling him is right) but there are suppliers on here who seem to disagree and that the end user is their customer and IMO it is just a matter of time before those suppliers take it one step further and go direct. That is the problem.

That is also what Stanley was trying to do (like his tactics or not) by letting everyone know who brands themselves so that we have an option to deal with that company

If I send in my first order to a company that brands itself I do not know that they do that until my order comes in. I want to option to know that ahead of time and then I can give the order to their competitor as I hope others would.

[jimknecht]

Schlep said:

there are suppliers on here who seem to disagree and that the end user is their customer and IMO it is just a matter of time before those suppliers take it one step further and go direct. That is the problem.

Then you folks have to solve the problem. Fire those suppliers & don't reward them with your business. You are in control. Don't worry about the justification suppliers give you when putting their info on the box/product. The only opinion that matters is yours. If you don't buy their justification... don't buy their product.

Schlep said:

If I send in my first order to a company that brands itself I do not know that they do that until my order comes in. I want to option to know that ahead of time and then I can give the order to their competitor as I hope others would.

I think the only true solution is for you to turn off the TV & ask your new suppliers beforehand. You know, we suppliers check out you folks before doing business with you the first time. We are ensuring you are not an enduser & then we check out your credit history, if available. So why can't you do a little checking of your own... besides what maybe Sage or ESP says. Why not have the supplier fill out a form you submit, where they state their policy in these areas?

[Stanley]

jimknecht said:

Stanley, from reading your posts, I am quite sure you never send thank you cards to suppliers.

Jim, with all due respect, don't sit there and project what you think I do or don't do.

You have some nerve saying that I don't send thank you cards.

for your information, I have been sending thank you cards as part of my business since my grandfather was working with me as my mentor. Which is why I have many of the same suppliers, screen printers, and embroiderers working with me for more than 20 years.

Today I use my own company www.SpeedyGreetings.com to send out a thank you card each and every day to someone. ( not the bus opp for most but just the retail acct.)

I'll bet that I have sent out more cards and gifts in the last year then you've sent out in the last decade.

So don't lecture me on something you know nothing about. You don't even know me.


And as far as simply fire the supplier after you find out their business tactics.

I would rather know it before I do business with those suppliers.

And if ESP and SAGE would let us know this, then we wouldn't have to waste time talking to suppliers about potential jobs only to find out that their business philosophy is the opposite of our (distributors).
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

[royster13]

Stanley I can not believe you would make the investment in "Thank You" cards without taking the time to "hand write" them...

[jimknecht]

Stanley said:

And as far as simply fire the supplier after you find out their business tactics.

I would rather know it before I do business with those suppliers.

And if ESP and SAGE would let us know this, then we wouldn't have to waste time talking to suppliers about potential jobs only to find out that their business philosophy is the opposite of our (distributors).
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Stanley, ESP & SAGE do a great job with reporting basic info...pricing, contact info, etc. However, for many, many suppliers. you can't boil down their business practices into a yes/no answer. You will have different answers for different products, as some suppliers have stated here. Some of these folks brand some product... but not others. Some folks brand solely per government regulation while others brand to attract the enduser. Some of those want to contact the enduser to sell direct where others want some control over that client... where they can farm those leads to other distributors.

Sorry, but I feel this discussion is way too complex to distill down to whether suppler X brands themselves or their product, or if they have an acceptable business philosophy... whatever that means (obviously means different things to different folks). I just don't think you will find your answer on ESP or SAGE.

As I told Arnie, if this is critical to you, then I think your only solution would be to have potential suppliers fill out a questionnaire. But even then, I suggest you refrain from simple yes/no questions. A supplier may be forced to brand themselves on certain products by the government & they may do so using the smallest copy allowable. So I think you should ask for explanation if someone states they do branding.

Edited by jimknecht, 24 February 2010 - 10:00 AM.

[Stanley]

A lot of people plan to send cards. Many know they should but put it off.

I send cards everyday because it's easy. Yes, they are printed on a million dollar press, High Gloss like any professional card but they are also printed in my own hand writing along with my signature.

The gift program is unmatched as far as ease of use.

It's not for everyone like anything in this world.

I love it and my clients do too.

And I never have to worry about whether the Card Company thinks my client is theirs.


Yesterday I sent out 2 thank you cards, 1 card with a box of brownies, and 1 card with a $10 starbuck gift card.

Fun, easy, fast. I'll even let you send a card on me (free). you can call me later 818-808-0812

But make no mistake, I use this supplier because they don't want to take my clients.

My name, website and phone number are branded on the back of every card.

<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

[royster13]

Stanley your reply just tells me you do not push yourself to the same standards as you are trying make suppliers live up to......A "thank you" card printed on a fancy press with your signature is still a step down from a "hand written" card....Come on Stanley, certainly you can do better!....

[PromoHelmet]

Stanley,

I use the same service to send thank you cards that you do.

Sendoutcards.

And yes my landing page is on the back of the each and every card, but right above it is a big Sendoutcards logo. Speedygreetings opens up to your Sendoutcards landing page.

Seems to me that you have evaluated sendoutcards and decided that they are not out to poach your customers so accept that they can put their big logo on the back of the card.

A potential customerr can still go a shop other sendoutcards distributors and purchase from them, they truely dont have to go back to you.

Yet you dont want any supplier logo on any of the products you sell or the boxes it comes in.

The only difference here is that sendoutcards gives you your own landing page. But that doesnt hide the supplier from your potential customer.

Why are you not prepared to investigate your potential suppliers and submit them to the same process.

In addition sendoutcards are in the business of custom one piece printing, they have an infrastructure setup to run one piece, its their total business, they have the osftware and print capabilities setup to do it. Please dont assume that ever supplier has this capability, 99.9% do not and never will.

The bulk of suppliers in this industry are much smaller than you seem to think.


Am now eagerly awaiting the angry response:)

[rosec]

Stanley, Stanley, Stanley,

Again, you are demanding things of us suppliers and accepting this practice when it suits you. Same as your web site was featuring names of suppliers.

Please pick a road take it, stay on it, and I for one will start to take you seriously! ssshhhheeessshhh!

Rose

Edited by rosec, 25 February 2010 - 10:00 AM.
ytpo

[rosec]

Stanley said:

Here is a classic example of why distributor's don't use what some suppliers call an END USER flyer.

I just got this in my inbox from stormtech.

I am pasting without editing anything what I have been told is the End User Version.

End User Versions

Click Here to view the Stormtech Hot List Retail Version

Now what part of this is end user safe?
<INPUT id=gwProxy type=hidden><!--Session data--><INPUT id=jsProxy onclick=jsCall(); type=hidden><INPUT id=gwProxy type=hidden><!--Session data--><INPUT id=jsProxy onclick=jsCall(); type=hidden>

Can you send the body of the e-mail telling you that this is an end-user flyer? I would say this is a sale catalog sent to you a distribuitor. I would say that if this was sent to you with wording to the effect thet this is an "end-user flyer" it is a mistake. But that being said, I do not know this suppliers model but you have the right to choose to not use this supplier. Is this concept something you can not grasp? If you do not like how a supplier does business - do not do business with that supplier!!!! Would big red letters make you understand it any better?

:eek: Rose

[jimknecht]

I think the one thing we have learned here, is that this situation is not black & white... no absolutes.

That being said, what Stanley requests is nothing new. This industry was founded on suppliers being "silent" partners, where we stay hidden from endusers. Thus in the old days we had line names & industry identifiers. Where we never dealt with an enduser unless the distributor requested the interaction.

Surely we can all see his point where this is changing & in some situations, changing greatly. Now we have major suppliers putting their names all over the product & the box. This does nothing to help the distributor who sold the order... just helps the supplier get the reorder from whomever. Yes, I can see where certain product might could be branded, because it is so special. Thus, the situation is not black & white. However, I think we all would be foolish to not agree this branding is getting out of hand in some situations. Surely we all can see where this is a concern to some distributors.

So Rose, my friend, I think you can & should take Stanley seriously. He ain't perfect & has taken a lot of heat in this discussion. I respect anyone who can duke it out & stick by his principles.

I for one take him very seriously... no matter what small flaws we can find in his argument. Even though many distributors might not put as high a value on this topic as he does, I don't doubt they agree unnecessary branding is not good for them.

Edited by jimknecht, 25 February 2010 - 10:20 AM.

[rosec]

Stanley,

I just jumped on stormtech web site. They obviously have a couple of different models. They have their own retail stores, sell wholesale to retail and sell to the promotional industry. It seems to me someone attached the wrong sell sheet to your e-mail - your e-mail is on a wholesale to retailers list by mistake or they are not undestanding how the Promo industry works.

Thanks, Rose

[Schlep]

rosec said:

Stanley,

I just jumped on stormtech web site. They obviously have a couple of different models. They have their own retail stores, sell wholesale to retail and sell to the promotional industry. It seems to me someone attached the wrong sell sheet to your e-mail - your e-mail is on a wholesale to retailers list by mistake or they are not undestanding how the Promo industry works.

Thanks, Rose

Rose I have entered an email blast and requested an end user flier be sent to the customer and it also has been exactly the same as the one sent to me. I think we all have to be careful of these and check them before we send them.:)

GOOD GOALIE EH:rolleyes:

[Tompromo]

While some suppliers self-promote their products whether it is because of CPSIA rules, create their own brand awareness, or because they feel the market is changing, and going direct to end users is the way of the future, that is a part of their business plan and have a right to it. But it is a legitimate concern for distributors to try to protect a system that has worked and the changes they see that can only hurt their own business. A perfect example is the travel agent. Because of the internet, they are a dying breed. Who knows, realtors may have cause to worry next. But it seems to me, what some of the dismissive suppliers to Stanley’s fight, should at least gather from this is that they are spending a lot of money on marketing materials that gets thrown away. Expensive catalogs and flyers and brochures that are send to us, that we will never show to end user because of all the self promotion on it, and no-where to put our contact info. That’s not to say we won’t try to sell their line. They may still be a great supplier with a great product. But in these cases I create my own flyer in Illustrator, so I can brand myself instead. It just seems wasteful that the suppliers produce all those materials. So hopefully something can be learned and money saved from knowing how distributors feel. Hopefully this isn’t off topic since there are alot of posts dealing with this issue.

Tom Karabatakis
Promotional Concepts
<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT]<FONT color="#0000c0">www.Tompromo.com

[Chris Miller]

A few of the "larger", off topic posts have been removed at the request of the original poster.

Feel free to start another thread if you want to discuss something other than the topic being discussed here.

[Tompromo]

Stanley, you took my comment out of context. I didn’t say they have a right to market to end users, I said they have the right to market themselves in preparation for the market if it changes. The trend is for end users to search for products on the internet and bypass us and we become extinct the way of the travel agent. I obviously don't like it, but it is happening.


Tom Karabatakis
Promotional Concepts
www.Tompromo.com

Edited by Tompromo, 25 February 2010 - 02:16 PM.
Post commenting about was removed

[Stanley]

Got it. Thanks
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">